I mean… I kinda get it, but nowadays it’s starting to get absurd.
(EDIT: This was supposed to be a “blow air out my nose and get on with my life” meme…)
I mean… I kinda get it, but nowadays it’s starting to get absurd.
(EDIT: This was supposed to be a “blow air out my nose and get on with my life” meme…)
You may or may not think China is “authoritarian” but how on earth are they fascist?
Far right? Hm, maybe not. Otherwise: Check, check, quasi-check, check, check, check, …
China has become a psudo Capitalist country in its quest for world domination.
Capitalism goes hand in hand with right wing extremism
I think China would have to do a lot more for the avg person before they could be considered socialist or communist again
Socialism isn’t when the government does stuff for the people, it’s when the people take matters into their own hands and do stuff for the good of each other. Even if a state behaves in the most benevolent way possible, it is not socialist unless the workers have collective ownership of the means of production.
By that definition there are no socialist countries.
When people talk about socialism in the real world it doesn’t mean owning the means of production
Only because the very concepts of ownership and the collective-individual dichotomy are necessarily vague and subjective. China considers themselves socialist because they equivocate the people with the state. If the people are collectively represented by the state and the state owns (some of) the means of production, then at least transitively the people own (some of) the means of production.
As an anarchist I don’t believe the state adequately represents the interests of the people, nor do I think it could even if it were radically democratic and egalitarian, though I would still certainly prefer that to the existing status quo. Somewhere a line must be drawn arbitrarily and I prefer to draw it on the other side of authoritarian state control.
Isn’t that kinda the line between socialism and communism? That communism has no state, but that a socialist state can act as a sort of intermediary.
Not that it’s the only socialist model, mind you; a market economy composed entirely of individual private worker co-ops is another model, for example. Then there’s the issue of implementation, whether the people actually democratically control the government.
But ideologically, while not communist, I don’t see how that structure can’t be considered socialist.
It’s not that it can’t be, I just personally don’t consider a state socialist unless it is a functioning democracy that enacts what is at least an approximation of the will of the workers. It becomes obvious this is not the case when a state is hostile towards workers who attempt to organize.
Within the last five years China completely eliminated the worst category of poverty in their borders. I’d say they are currently actively engaged in doing a lot more for the average person than most countries.
You could say the same about every developed nation. It took a bit more for most nations, but these nations had to literally invent concepts like public health and education, welfare and even socialism.
But yeah, every western European country has already eliminated the worst kind of poverty and on average European citizens are better off than Chinese citizens. Working conditions, working hours and safety laws in Europe are much better than the Chinese average.
The US is doing its own thing with extreme capitalism, and I’m against that, but let’s not kid ourselves, China has taken a lot of pages from the US’s economic model
“Developed nation” is a propaganda term designed to make you think that the overexploited nations of the world are on some mythical path that will lead them to a first world quality of life.
This is an apples-to-oranges comparison. Europe is the beneficiary of hundreds of years of imperialism and accumulation and the ongoing system of global unequal exchange, whereas China is a former victim of said imperialism that has pulled themselves out of the muck with their own workers’ labor. China is better off compared to India, which achieved independence not long afterward but has fallen far behind in every single development index because of their failure to overthrow capital.
European workers didn’t get their rights from being imperialist, they fought hard against the imperialist elites to get where they are now, and China’s elites are being just as imperialist today as any European or American elite has been since forever.
China and India is apples to oranges. There are a myriad of reasons why their paths diverged. There are other East Asian countries that did better than China way before China, while starting from a much more similar point (or even a worse point).
Brother 90% of the world’s labor is done by 50% of the countries, and it aint fukken Europe that’s doing the hard work to keep the global economy running.
And please point to any example of Chinese imperialism that has occurred in the last forty years. No, offering loans with better terms than what the IMF offers to African countries does not count.
Nine dash line
If you can take the Chinese Government for their word. Which I can’t
Helping 800 Million People Escape Poverty Was Greatest Such Effort in History, Says Secretary-General, on Seventieth Anniversary of China’s Founding
Lifting 800 Million People Out of Poverty – New Report Looks at Lessons from China’s Experience
Do you take the Chinese citizens at theirs?
Very few governments on this planet have approval numbers this good, and even fewer have numbers this good when it’s a neutral third party conducting the surveys.
I’m sorry but a dictator for life is a dealbreaker.
I’ll admit that a truly dedicated and benevolent dictator could run a good society, there are a few examples in the past too.
But it’s going to collapse once daddy dies like every dictatorship.
What makes you think Xi is a dictator? If your answer is “because that’s the vibe I get from American Government propaganda”, then you should reassess the things you think you know about the world. The truth is that China has a very vibrant and active democracy that is much more responsive to the demands of its people than that of most other nations, and Xi is merely the one currently at the top of that democratic system.
So… Authoritarian, and not far right… So… Not fascist.
Calling a government fascist, but not far-right is like calling Death Valley a lake. There’s no fucking water (anymore), its not a fucking lake.
Mate, the only thing missing from that list to also check far right would be extreme conservatism. No idea how much China is conservative and how much that matters compared to other things. It would be like death valley in a different country.
You simply don’t understand.
Far-right, ultra-conservative, and fascist are synonyms. There is no difference between these terms.
They all describe the same thing; fascism.
Last time I checked the definition of these things they were clearly separat. Things change fast today, seemingly.
The far-right part is critical though. It’s kind of like how breast cancer needs to be in breast tissues. China is just authoritarian.
Exactly. China is colon cancer, not breast cancer
I mean yeah… Far right is kinda a big part of distinguishing authoritarian left vs authoritarian right. I think the only way you could possibly conflate the two is by ignoring economics.
Tradition is big. E.g TCM crap over science
You cannot disagree with the state
Stokes fear and hatred of outsiders
Blames social frustrations on those outsiders
Appeals to restore past glory
Han ethnic supremacy
You could go through all of Eco’s points and apply them to China pretty fittingly.
Genuinely, what on earth are you talking about? China’s past is full of poverty, humiliation, and exploitation, literally, “The century of humiliation!” The only people who “appeal to restore past glory” are the CIA-funded Shen Yun performances romanticizing “China before communism.” The Chinese people I talk to will specifically point to the Qing as a clear demonstration of the danger of clinging to tradition and the necessity of adapting and looking forward.
China literally had a cultural revolution seeking to abolish tradition. I expect you would call that fascist just as you call if fascist whenever some people still follow tradition, after all:
Been on xiaohongshu for a while now and the chinese netizens I interacted with were nothing but kind to foreigners even when we treated them like shit.
Anecdotal evidence means nothing, doubly so from a .ml troll.
You can literally go on XHS or douyin and speak with them yourself
I’ve lived in China. I’ve had Chinese live with me. I actually know shit without going on social media and being fed propaganda.
Do tell, I’d love to know about your experience there
You’re interacting with the ones who are still allowed internet access.
Hold up, you think people in China aren’t allowed to access Chinese apps? 🤣
Many of them use VPNs to get around firewalls and I speak with them aswell on other platforms. I am learning mandarin and it is quite helpful. I don’t like everypart of their society, there is still some of misogyny and homophobia that makes me uncomfortable but I have seen worse here. The people of xiaohongshu are actually making great strides to combat this and I applaud them. I have probably spoken candidly with people from every major city. What makes you think people without global internet are inherently more reactionary. Wouldn’t their views be reflected in the people that have that access as well? If it is so nation wide?
Cool.
I’m glad their lives aren’t hell under their fascist regime.
Most of the time when a country tries to make an ethnostate the main race get to live pretty good lives.
Wild that you actually think China is a Han ethnostate. Are you the type to believe they are sterilizing their minorities?
Cool, I didn’t even say Han and yet you knew what I meant.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese#:~:text=The Han Chinese%2C alternatively the,75%25 of the country’s population.
There are long running documented campaigns of cultural erasure of China’s minority groups. It’s no shocker that a country with billions of people they would use ethnic clensing to maintain social stability.
I said Han because I am well aware that is the ethnic majority in China lmao. I’d love to see your sources for the ethnic cleansing.
The ottomans had a stupid amount of ethnic minorities and managed to last for centuries. Ethnic and cultural diversity does not necessarily mean instability. Xinjiang and Tibet are autonomous regions for a reason.
Technically you could make thinly-veiled criticisms against local governments, but just not the central government or Xi Jingping
Or you can talk shit about the government behind closed doors, there are no telescreens like Orwell’s 1984.
That shit is fucking annoying. My mom keep telling me anti-depressants are bad 😓
Ok what about Robert Paxton’s? Those are a lot better thought out as his actual focus is fascism rather than it being a side gig like it is for Eco.
This is all some seriously internalized US propaganda.
What is? Calling China fascist isn’t American propaganda because the government and its sources do not claim China is fascist. The Americans calling China fascist are poorly educated in fascism. China is authoritarian but not fascist.
I’m agreeing with you for the most part, their list of talking points is the propaganda.
Anything negative of China is propaganda says the .ml tankie.
Gee, you wouldn’t happen to be utterly biased at all.
Lmao you know ml just stands for Mali in this case right? Like do you think they’re doing ideological purity testing when you sign up? Do you think my whole instance is CCP agents?
So if you post on social media “I think Dictator Xi should be removed from office and we should have real elections again” nothing will happen?
I feel like something happens if you post that in China that you don’t want to talk about.
You can’t ask that in any authoritarian nation so. that isn’t demonstrating that China is fascist.
Doublethink is cringe.
Stop with the mental gymnastics before you pull a muscle
Saying something “is cringe” is a great way o demonstrate poor communication skills.
Nothing you mention is unique to fascism nor would be used by educated people to determine if a nation is fascist.
It’s ok that you know nothing about fascism as that is downright common on Lemmy but don’t double down on the arrogance after proving your ignorance.
What happens? Do you have any evidence of what happens besides your imagination?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/thousands-of-people-being-disappeared-in-china-for-criticising-the-communist-party-or-being-too-rich-and-powerful/3M32MV2ZIFJ6ZKY3BKCH4XWCLA/
We don’t have to imagine because they do that already.
This is exactly the propaganda I’m referring to. I’m sure some people are being detained unjustly. I’m also very sure that number, whether per capita or in raw headcount, is a lot lower than in the US.
Nothing is real if you don’t want to engage with it.
Sorry this makes you uncomfortable
Using language like “disappeared” to refer to detainees just because the Western media can’t conduct interviews with them in prison is textbook propaganda-speak.
sure
I think many might reference the Uyghur genocide + extreme authoritarianism to explain why they call China fascist. I personally, am not educated on the persecution of the Uyghur genocide part, so I’m not so sure.
But China definitely has hints of nationalism and “former glory” or whatever when they start talking about Taiwan and the South China Sea. Sooo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This is copy pasted but solid information, I can list plenty more as well. America loved to lie about the USSR then and they love to lie about China now. They use the same disprovable tactics but we fall for them because we are a new generation and have been taught propaganda in our history classes as if it is fact.
The whole conspiracy theory started with a claim of millions of Uyghurs being supposedly imprisoned story is based on two highly dubious “studies.”.
However, this claim is completely absurd when you stop and think about it even for a minute. That figure 1 million is repeated again and again. Let’s just look at how much space would you actually need to intern one million people.
This is a photo of Rikers Island, New York City’s biggest prison. The actual size of a facility interning ten thousand people.
According to Wikipedia, “The average daily inmate population on the island is about 10,000, although it can hold a maximum of 15,000.” Let’s assume this is a Xinjiang detention camp, holding ten to fifteen thousand people. How many of these would it take to hold one million people?
Let’s do some math:
In reality, one million people would probably take more space; all the supposed detention camps we see are much less dense than Rikers.
For comparison, San Francisco is 47 square miles. Amsterdam is 64 square miles. You’d literally need detention camps that total the size of San Francisco or Amsterdam to intern one million Uyghurs. It’d be like looking at a map of California. There’s Los Angeles. There’s San Diego. And look, there’s San Francisco Concentration City with its one million Uyghurs.
Literally visible to the naked eye from space.
CHRD states that it interviewed dozens of ethnic Uyghurs in the course of its study, but their enormous estimate was ultimately based on interviews with exactly eight Uyghur individuals. Based on this absurdly small sample of research subjects in an area whose total population is 20 million, CHRD “extrapolated estimates” that “at least 10% of villagers […] are being detained in re-education detention camps, and 20% are being forced to attend day/evening re-education camps in the villages or townships, totaling 30% in both types of camps.” Furthermore, it doesn’t even make sense from logistics perspective.
Practically all the stories we see about China trace back to Adrian Zenz who is a far right fundamentalist nutcase and not a reliable source for any sort of information. The fact that he’s the primary source for practically every article in western media demonstrates precisely what I’m talking about when I say that coverage is divorced from reality.
Zenz is a born-again Christian who lectures at the European School of Culture and Theology. This anodyne-sounding campus is actually the German base of Columbia International University, a US-based evangelical Christian seminary which considers the “Bible to be the ultimate foundation and the final truth in every aspect of our lives,” and whose mission is to “educate people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ.”
Zenz’s work on China is inspired by this biblical worldview, as he recently explained in an interview with the Wall Street Journal. “I feel very clearly led by God to do this,” he said. “I can put it that way. I’m not afraid to say that. With Xinjiang, things really changed. It became like a mission, or a ministry.”.
Along with his “mission” against China, heavenly guidance has apparently prompted Zenz to denounce homosexuality, gender equality, and the banning of physical punishment against children as threats to Christianity.
Zenz outlined these views in a book he co-authored in 2012, titled Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation. In the tome, Zenz discussed the return of Jesus Christ, the coming wrath of God, and the rise of the Antichrist.
The fact that this nutcase is being paraded as a credible researcher on the subject is absolutely surreal, and it’s clear that the methodology of his “research” doesn’t pass any kind of muster when examined closely.
It’s also worth noting that there is a political angle around the narrative around Xinjiang. For example, here’s George Bush’s chief of staff openly saying that US wants to destabilize the region, and NED recently admitting to funding Uyghur separatism for the past 16 years on their own official Twitter page. An ex-CIA operative details US operations radicalizing and training terrorists in the region in this book. Here’s an excerpt:
US has been stoking terrorism in the region while they’ve been running a propaganda campaign against China in the west. In fact, US even classified Uyghur separatists as a terrorist group at one point https://www.mintpressnews.com/us-was-at-war-uyghur-terrorists-now-claims-etim-doesnt-exist/276916/
Here’s an interview with a son of imam killed in Xinjiang https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-19/Son-of-imam-assassinated-in-Kashgar-s-2014-mosque-attack-speaks-out-RqNiyrcRuo/index.html
Here’s an account from a Pakistani journalist who has been all over Xinjiang (which borders Pakistan) claims that western media reports on “atrocities” are lies. https://dailytimes.com.pk/723317/exposing-the-occidents-baseless-lies-about-xinjiang/
It’s also worth noting that the accusations originate entirely from the west while Muslim majority countries support China, and their leaders have visited Xinjiang many times.
Also notable that whenever western media actually deigns to visit Xinjiang, which is not often, they’re unable to produce support for any of their claims of mass imprisonment and oppression, so they opt for insinuations instead https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9
There’s a further list of debunking here if you’re interested https://redsails.org/the-xinjiang-atrocity-propaganda-blitz/
The whole thing is very clearly a propaganda blitz that US is cynically using to manipulate impressionable people in the west.
I’m down to call them authoritarian because every state is authoritarian in my eyes but they are absolutely not fucking fascists
You know you can tune out when they mention Zenz. He is to tankies as Soros is to Republicans.
Is there anything you could share that would shed more light on the Zenz thing? I’m not very keen on just “tuning out” my ideological opponents or dismissing them just because they don’t affirm my biases. I’d rather read up on it myself and decide.
Part of admitting that I’m not immune to propaganda, for me, is working to root it out wherever I can by reading and cross-referencing a wide range of sources. If my deepest beliefs and biases can’t stand up to that sort of scrutiny then I don’t want them anymore.
Not agreeing with your dictator makes it impossible to leave the country, keeps your bloodline out of good schools, and if your rhetoric is bad enough you just get abducted and dissappear.
Social Credit Scores are dehumanizing and evil.
Pretty fascist if you ask me.
The social credit score stuff is basically a Western myth. There was some local level rumblings and plans, but most of it has been unpopular or axed. The only thing that exists at a national level for individuals is the equivalent of a credit score in the US and western countries. I believed this narrative at one point, but then I delved deeper. https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/11/22/1063605/china-announced-a-new-social-credit-law-what-does-it-mean/
If you talk bad about the dictator they take away your right to buy train and airline tickets to escape the country.
This is real policy.
There are repercussions for saying you want free and fair elections, that is unacceptable
Do you have a source so I could read more about it?
No, no it’s not.
Ok live in your fantasy world where the CCP public policy doesn’t say that.
can you link?
Everything you listed is common to all authoritarian systems not just fascism. China is authoritarian not fascist.