Propagandistic bullshit.
Saying you can’t say “both sides suck” means we’re stuck with only two and must pick one.
Two is not the only option.
But it’s difficult to mobilize the bread eaters as they watch the circus.
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Both are bad though one is worse but both are shit
This is an ancient opinion. People have been complaining about America’s two party system for literal centuries.
I thought this was about Israel doing a genocide because people (especially Israeli people) can’t separate Hamas from Palestine.
But everyone seems to be taking it as a commentary on the two party system despite only one of these things being new to this year?
The ideological signifying here, though, is squarely situated within the language of American politics. All Lives Matter was a reactionary counter to Black Lives Matter, a distinctly American political movement. Similarly, “both sides suck” is something which has been repeated ad nauseam about American politics. As such, the meme suggests itself that it’s about American politics. At least that’s how I’m reading it. If the OP meant it to be about Israel and Palestine, I think they could have framed it better.
Also, the guy in the meme is a… checks notes… Canadian that goes around debating freshmen at American college campuses.
I prefer to refer to him as “failed comedian Stephen Crowder.”
‘Successful abuser’ works as well.
Palestine itself is a two party system. Hamas vs Fatah, the former controls the Gaza Strip, the latter controls the West Bank (specifically the areas not occupied by Israel)
George Washington warned Americans about the dangers of a two party system. That’s how far back it goes.
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sort of
But I do think there is a legitimate ACAB angle here, to slice it by power dynamics instead: All political leaders are bastards.
It’s not just one nation vs another, it’s also civilians vs the political elite. So while I agree it’s wrong to say “both sides are equally to blame”, there are other useful perspectives. I think.
It’s not just one nation vs another, it’s also civilians vs the political elite
Breaking it down further: it is the proletariat vs the dictatorship of capital (the mechanisms by which the capitalist class collectively rules) representing the interests of the capitalist class.
Depends on the specific conflict you’re talking about. Is this about American politics? Palestine? Ukraine?
For example I wouldn’t say that the dictatorship of capital is an especially pertinent aspect of the ruling elite when discussing the Palestine conflict, but it certainly is when discussing American politics.
I mean yeah, colonialism and capitalism are tied together at the hip, and Palestinians resisting the settler state of Israel is pretty directly related to resisting capitalist violence.
Throwing in the standard disclaimer of “my family was affected by the holocaust and I know several anti-zionist israelis who think Israel doesn’t have a right to exist” because some people get really weird about this opinion.
Everything is related to everything, so if course colonialism and by extension capitalism plays a part. And while capitalists are absolutely using both sides for their own gains, I don’t think there driving force of the conflict comes down to capital, but a conflict of non-economic ideologies.
But, it’s a very large conflict with a very long history, so not only am I not an expert, but the nature of the conflict may have many aspects that change over time.
I don’t think there driving force of the conflict comes down to capital, but a conflict of non-economic ideologies.
Well, you’re incorrect. Israel is a settler colonial venture, that is where the conflict comes from, not a difference in religious beliefs.
But, it’s a very large conflict with a very long history, so not only am I not an expert, but the nature of the conflict may have many aspects that change over time.
The region was really peaceful before the colonial project actually, I mean of course the ottoman empire wasn’t great but there wasn’t a lot of notable ethnic conflict in the region.
By “long history” I meant decades not centuries. Still long enough to be multigenerational.
Also there are more ideologies than just religion and economics, and conflict can be over a combination of them. Just because one party is colonial, doesn’t mean that all conflicts are necessarily going to be primarily over capital. That will of course be a part, but it’s also not like one day all the Jews in Europe were like “let’s go kick out all the people from this area because lolz”.
I’m trying to avoid talking about my personal beliefs here, but I’m definitely not of the opinion that both sides are equally bad.
I absolutely agree that colonialism is a huge (biggest?) factor though, and that goes all the way back to when European powers chose the land and kicked out the native people.
Both sides are bad. Yes, one is considerably worse than the other, but that doesn’t make the alternative good, it just makes it better.
Good is relative. And relatively speaking, one is definitely good compared to the other.
It’s not good of its own merit though, it’s only good compared to something worse. Neither party represents the interests of the average working class individual.
Literally nothing is “good of its own merit”. Because literally nothing is intrinsically “good”.
“Good” is a subjective idea, not objectively measurable, so it will always be in reference to another, i.e. relative.
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Both are consistent within the confines of the definition.
Maybe for you that’s the case, I definitely have a definition of morally good and both sides aren’t that. Accepting collateral for example. You can’t be good in my book if you’re doing that, and they both did.
Both sides ARE bad. The trick is to use critical thinking and realize that one side is “stupid and misguided” bad and the other is “literal nazi, genocide against minorities, and also very stupid” bad.
Both sides are currently supporting genocide right now.
You might want to fix that.
I can’t believe I escaped Reddit just to fall back in the same political controversy here as well x-x
I feel like it shouldn’t be controversial to say that the party currently supporting and funding a genocide while boasting about how they will implement Trump’s fascist boarder policy more effectively and more fascistly is not fundamentally different to the one these smug dipshits crow about being the greatest threat to “democracy” or whatever the fuck.
Welp I totally regret commenting my opinion absolutely didn’t think someone would jump and tell me something about politics, anyway you’re correct I respect your opinion about this, the Us should spend their money on shit that helps them or contributes to the world, funding a war that been on for a 100 years and still no hope of it ending anytime soon is similar to a person burning their salary to revive a mythical creature that they read in a book or some shit, please no one comments on my comment anything political otherwise I will delete and start blocking instances, the whole war is stupid and anyone contributing anyhow other than a Real solution to end it is not far from stupid, and the stupidest is the ones who kept the war going for 100 years of failure (if you’re too dumb and couldn’t invade it just give up and let go all history’s smart nations been there and chose the smart decision of “if didn’t succeed the first time give up or get your needs politically by playing the long term game”.) all this Bs escalating to giving me headaches from these political posts.
Garbage post. There aren’t two sides to vote for, there is one.
I ain’t fucking voting in bourgeois elections no matter how much libs try to brow beat me online for it.
My time and all of yours is better used to actually help your and our communities. You should just stay on reddit with this smug bullshit.
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I get why people want to choose the smaller evil but sometimes it’s necessary to point out all evils and head towards a stateless society.
But maybe that’s the difference between “both sides bad” and “two sides bad”
You’re not wrong that we should be able to critique everyone in government, but that’s not what people are taking issue with so it’s not really the problem. You’re kind of omitting the second half. “Both sides are the same, so it doesn’t make a difference what I do/I’ll just keep voting the way I have/I won’t vote because it doesn’t matter.”
I just don’t understand how “both sides are the same” could possibly hold any water after Roe was repealed. That’s evidence enough to the contrary, but people are far more concerned with sounding like they are “above the fray” and being perceived as big brain skeptics (even if they are uninformed on the issues) so they repeat it anyway. That or they are still voting MAGA and want to create a false equivalency.
I don’t understand how “both sides are the same” could possibly hold any water after roe was appealed.
Well it’s a good thing the electorate voted largely democratic after Trump so that could get fixed!
It comes down to this, I know Biden is supporting killing innocent children in Palestine.
We can roll back policies that dumb fucker trump might try because people will still be alive.
We might need another trump presidency to show people that they need to do more than support genocide supporting candidates.
Maybe if it gets bad enough the rest of you will join us in not accepting shitty candidates as good enough.
They say you get less radical as you get older, but the older I get, the more I think it’s time to let the system burn and try again.
I’m sorry but “Trump will shake things up and get us to do something” is an absurd take and doesn’t give us the right to unleash what we know will happen to marginalized groups in this country. Especially when bringing him on isn’t going to stop what is going on in Israel and Palestine. If anything, it will make things worse.
Unless you think Trump is going to help innocents in Palestine, frankly, the argument doesn’t hold any water. And if you do believe that, well… I’m not really sure what to say.
Oh, it’s not something I am hoping for, just the potential of a silver lining.
I don’t think trump will help anyone.
What I do see is so many people who are worried about people’s rights, and then continue supporting someone who doesn’t support an innocent persons right to live.
It makes it really hard for me to feel for someone who is worried about not being able to dress or be called by the pronoun that the feel matches their gender, none of which is throwing trans/ace/ other minority under the bus.
I use it as an example to point out the hypocrisy.
I am sure it is horrible to people who have to deal with that, but being killed is irreversible.
I know that trans people are more likely to commit suicide and all that, just using this as a parallel.
If we are this worried about the potential harms created by a trump presidency, shouldn’t we hold Biden to a higher standard?
I’m sure this will rub people the wrong way so please feel free to ask for clarification if you actually want to have a discussion about the topic.
Just because I voted for Biden does not mean I don’t care about an innocent person’s - or any person’s for that matter - right to live. That is a cruel accusation to levy at someone.
You’re acting like we all have a concrete say in every issue of domestic and foreign policy. The reality is we all have a very small piece of the puzzle that allows us to move the needle in small ways. It’s glacial and frustrating and kind of the point, for better or for worse. The problem with your comment is you are equating voting against Trump, i.e. voting for the Democrats, with not caring about innocent people dying abroad. I think I don’t need to explain to you why that’s not really a fair take, anymore than I can say you hate the planet and want it to burn for ever getting on an airplane or in a car.
You could stand with me and say no to Biden and make them run a better candidate, you are choosing to allow it by not standing against, or at least by not supporting the standard he has laid.
I did not vote for Biden in the primary last time and I will not be voting for him in the primary this time. Do not presume to know how I am going to vote. We are clearly talking about the general election, however, and it is safe to assume it will be Biden vs. Trump at this stage.
2023 centrism in a nutshell. “I don’t like Biden so I vote to give Trump the dictatorship he so craves backed by the scotus he rigged his way into so we’ll never have a choice again”
To all the people who want to vote third party or withhold their vote, please tell me, when had that ever effected change?
This idea that if you hold your vote or vote 3rd party you’re gonna teach the establishment a lesson is laughable. No, the system will go on without you and you’ll just have even less of a voice/decision in the direction of our country.
There is a reason certain people work so hard to tell you your vote doesn’t matter. You’re all falling for it.
Edit: If you don’t like the candidates you have to choose from then go out and vote in the primaries because there’s about a 90% chance you’re not doing that.
If all the people who are defensive voting decided to stop doing that, our current leading parties would not be #1 &2. Your presumption that we even consider your candidate is laughable. And you are not making a convincing argument to change my mind, at best you are triggering clapter in the people who agree with you, so I hope your motive is to actually just keep defensive voters in their place.
Plus you already believe going against society’s establishment is worth doing, or why are you on lemmy?
1854, with the generous assumption that the threat of party replacement hasn’t influenced policy positions whatsoever.
So in today’s elections, one might point to Democrats who are increasingly opposed to FPTP.
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I’ve found people on here actually arguing that hamas is unambiguously right in their actions. Unlike black lives matter where saying white lives don’t matter is a complete straw man that no one was arguing. So making sure people are on the same page about Hamas I think is valuable still.
You know your take is “How dare they fighting against being genocided” they should let Isreal drop bombs at them and kill their families daily like the last half century and never ever retaliate while the world watchs in silence or even help Isreal doing the massacre. How inhuman of them to fight back with the same ferocity the Isreali settlers fucks has shown to them. Oh, look at the Poor isreali settlers that left their western country to go and steal a palistinian land and act towards them worst than during apartheid SA. Yeah, hamas are freedom fighters and isreali propagandists call them terrorists to delegitimize Palestinians fight against fucking genocide.
I geuss when someone enters your home and beat the shit out of you and your family, Steal and destroy all your belongings every other day you just accept it and will not defend yourself, huh?
Fighting against being genocided is legitimate !
Both sides bad is used by those whose privilege protects them from the ravages of the system they support.
Fighting against being genocided is legitimate !
This is international law. We must uphold international law and promote human rights, because any society that does not, puts the whole world closer to barbarism.
“The son of YOUR president took a single bribe and showed his ding dong on the internet, my president rapes women, lies about his finances, commits fraud and incites an insurrection! See both side are bad!”
Both sides are bad the same way that day-past-expiration milk and arsenic are both yucky
I find it interesting that the hamas Israel conflict has become such a political issue. Support of Israel in general, yeah religiously charged. But Hamas did start the attack and do a ton of fucked up stuff. SO many hostages including Americans. Israel is an oppressive government and from a distance seems systemically racist not just overly defensive. I just feel like this is a more nuanced issue
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I just think it’s worth noting that Hamas does call for the destruction of Israel. You can’t discount one set of lost lives for another. The only real victims here are non-Hamas Palestinians
Hunter has done a lot more worse than that. Nice on you picking and choosing his weakness offences.
Hunter isn’t even in a political office! He shouldn’t even be on anyone’s radar. And you sir/madam are part of the problem.
It doesn’t matter though, he’s not the president and is not involved in any politicalmatters. Sure, he should be investigated if he did something wrong, but why is that relevant?
All lives matter was a racist dog whistle. Both sides are bad is just the sad state of politics where neither major parties actually care about the people.
“Both sides” is an attempt to create a false equivalency between the party that wants to do an end run around our democratic systems/repeal the rights of women and already marginalized nationwide/jail dissenters, and the Democrats.
The Democratic Party has countless problems, but the fact of the matter is the above are incredibly important and imminent threats. Yeah, I’m going to hold my nose and vote for the less-bad option. Because both sides are not the same.
You falling for the theatre one presents a little better, doesn’t mean they don’t both lead to the exact same result, one just does it slower and politely enough to appease moderates such as yourself:
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
If you’re going to reduce my opinions to “falling for theater” then I have little interest in having a discussion with you. I don’t see what kind of discussion is worth having with someone willing to dismiss me out of hand.
Okay so you admit in your own argument that they’re doing it slower. Yes, I WILL vote for a 50-year plan to fascism over voting for a 2-year plan to fascism, every time, without question. Gives us more time to turn it around before sitting officials burn everything down. At this point in this country I frankly don’t give much of a damn what the Democrat long term goals are anymore because the Republican party is such an immediate and obvious threat to safety, democracy, and human decency. Given such an environment it’s obvious that a few decades (or less) from now we’re going to be dealing with significant problems in the Democratic party, since it’s so easy to choose to usher them into power right now - it’s easy for bad actors to abuse that. And frankly there are already problems in the Democratic party. But I’d rather deal with that then, than deal with Republican ideals now, because instituting Republican ideals now will not leave us with a future where we even have the choice to deal with Democrat problems.
So in summary: “both sides bad”?
(Hint: the Democrats long term goals are to lose to the fascists on purpose because that’s how they maximize their funding/support from liberalesque individuals like yourself.)
Very interesting hint. I do agree though, one is wolf in sheep’s clothing, other is wolf in wolf’s clothing. MLK Jr. had something to say about that:
I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negroes’ great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s “Counciler” or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a “more convenient season.”
Oh you’re one of those people
