Excuse me but I’m actually working for the Chinese. Although these Russian guys do make solid points.
There are also useful idiots.
See: Republican nominee
Very true.
The very simple fact is : if you find yourself on the same side as Russian bots and don’t find it so disturbing that you immediately change your position, you can’t claim any high moral ground use that to lecture other people. You are effectively a Russian bot.
Except the Russian misinformation strategy is literally to take both sides on all issues, it’s just about amplifying existing misinformation/discontent/division, which is more effective than only pushing one angle.
Most Russian bots are pretty straightforward.
You don’t need advanced social strategies to influence dumb people.
if you find yourself on the same side as Russian bots and don’t find it so disturbing that you immediately change your position
As mentioned by another commenter, the actual strategy of the real Russian government is to sow division by advocating a bunch of positions, so a particular position being presented by Russian trolls absolutely does not warrant immediately changing my position. Your position is not special in that regard.
But more generally, I’m not going to change my position on anything solely because someone awful agrees with it.
And even more generally, I don’t care about unifying people under the political agenda of any existing government or political party. I want to see people unified about organizing themselves. To that end, letting one of the existing political parties, including yours, dictate our political will to us goes against the goal of people organizing themselves.
you can’t claim any high moral ground use that to lecture other people.
I do not claim nor need the moral high ground to present my opinions. Same goes for everyone else.
So basically what you are saying is : Russian bots aren’t all that bad 🤣
Russian bots aren’t all that bad
Yes, in two senses:
- I don’t lose sleep at night knowing that these bots exist (or those of any other government). They shouldn’t exist for the simple reason that public institutions shouldn’t be in the business of deceiving people, but unfortunately, deceiving the public is a bunch of what the State actually fucking does “for” “us”. I especially don’t think the Russian government cares to run bots/trolls on our little corner of the internet when bigger targets exist.
- Vacuously, I don’t disagree with literally everything that the Russian bots say because they can be found saying just about anything.
I cannot stress enough that I do NOT approve of state-sponsored botting or trolling of public spaces in general. However, when you see Pro-Russian or Pro-whatever opinions on the Internet, you are probably reading the words of a “useful idiot” or non-State troll.
This reality is a lot scarier than if the opinions were all just from some Russian troll farm, because now we have to interrogate the reality that these people have different and complex reasons for why they ended up with those opinions. It means that the task of persuasion is a lot more complicated than just shielding people from bots and trolls.
You wrote down a reason why Russian bots are bad and one that is not really true. Russian bots aren’t saying just about anything. Not to mention most people wouldn’t mind if a self proclaimed Russian bot started to push for vanilla ice cream over chocolate agenda. They would “not lose sleep” over it, but then some still go out and buy some vanilla. Even if they don’t believe in marketing.
It doesn’t really matter if they are a bot or a useful idiot if they are doing the same job.
So basically:
Russian bots do exist but they are “not that bad”. Also if someone from Russia they are not necessarily a bot because they have a different opinion…
That’s all fine to have that position but who are you to tell other people if they encountered a bot or a real human being ?
Do you have any idea how prevalent Russian bots are ? What are their latest strategy?
I cannot answer these questions and you shouldn’t either.
The people you are bashing for pointing at “Russian bots” could be completely right. Their perception of internet is not the same as yours.
If anything it’s good that people are suspicious of any Russian information on the internet. It’s much better in my opinion than your alternative which seems to be built on contempt for people falling for bots and a very prominent ego yourself for thinking nobody ever got you.
I don’t think most people even consider that an opinion, to not vote…
Then most people would be unaware of the vast history of non-voting in anarchist and revolutionary socialist movements.
It is a valid opinion even if you don’t agree with it. Here’s an accessible write-up.
Maybe it’ll work out this time! Lol
I mean, given how far revolutionary socialist movements went, especially in the 20th century, it fucking worked lmao. The ascendant economic and geopolitical power today is ruled by revolutionary socialists. And they achieved turning one of the poorest regions of earth beset by imperial powers on one side and warlords on the other.
Baby brain liberal bullshit.
No matter how many times you post these shitty reddit lib memes we are not casting a vote for a genocidal piece of shit.
“we are not casting a vote for a genocidal piece of shit.”
That’d be a great sentiment if not voting was going to actually help stop the genocide.
Most leftists are advocating to vote for Claudia De La Cruz. The “non-voter” narrative is largely born from leftists saying the federal election largely will not change much, and instead actual organization on the ground is what matters.
Even then, there still is a legitimate argument in favor of deliberately abstaining.
both sides are the same
How’s the weather in russia? Hahahaha gottem
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Don’t you fucking dare use Trans people as a shield when dems don’t give a single fuck for the safety of Trans and queer spaces. This sort of behavior is not going to ingratiate you to anyone facing oppression right now under Biden or potentially Kopmala.
For fuck sake she literally forced Trans women to be jailed with men and deliberately kept people jailed for cannabis charges after it was decriminalized. For the sake of civility fuck your smug bullshit. I would say hell of a lot meaner shit to you on hexbear.
Oh fuck you. If you think Republicans won’t be even worse your a fucking moron. More likely you’re just a liar trying to make excuses for you do nothing bullshit.
do nothing bullshit
advocating for voting
Like 80 percent of Americans don’t even live in a competitive state, stop wasting your time cheerleading for a sham democracy
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will magically make everyone agree with you suddenly
The true feelings of a liberal - it’s better for people to agree with you than being right.
when everything fails and everyone is dying
Everyone is dying in Gaza, that’s the whole discussion here. I know libs have memory issues (every next election is the most important ever) but that’s pretty poor mate.
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YOU don’t do nothing! You’d unconditionally vote for the party committing genocide RIGHT NOW, their new candidate is not even a pivot, she’s the current VP of the administration supporting genocide!
You just float along the shit river… whatever the Democrats do, you’re there supporting them.
This is exactly why everything is getting more right wing.deleted by creator
so you can feel morally superior about letting people die
THEY ARE SUPPORTING GENOCIDE IN GAZA AND THEY KEEP THE UKRAINE MEAT GRINDER GOING
You are literally describing yourself, fuck your harm reduction
I’m not American, but US policies have a material effect on me, and I hate liberals
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It must be nice to not care about horrible things happening to most people. It makes it so much easier when you don’t care about people, right?
Sadly a question you can ask Kopmala and Biden themselves about why they’re not trying to earn back the people whose votes they lost given what Trump’s going to do, but I guess expecting two people to change course is probably infinitely harder than the many, many people who’ve decided not to bother voting.
But I guess those two must be kept safe from critical questions, seeing as no one’s even trying to pressure them into changing course (except of course for the protesters who most likely count among those who won’t be voting). Then again Biden himself isn’t all that concerned about whether or not Trump wins if we’re being honest.
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outlaw trans people
What, materially, other than nice sounding words, has Biden and federal-level Democrats in general done to counteract what is happening to trans people in red states right now? What indication is there that Democrats care to do anything for trans people on a federal level? On the state level, sure, there’s been some action to make blue states sanctuary states and such, but federally?
abortion, birth control,
Again, what have Biden and the federal level Democrats done about this? Did they codify Roe while they had the chance? Did they pack the courts so Roe couldn’t be overturned? Did they build abortion clinics on Federal land? Or did they just, yet again, say nice words?
end unions
Biden literally broke a strike lmao. Personally, by his own hands. One of the few proactive things he has done in his whole presidency is to actively break a strike.
end democracy
We already don’t live in a democracy. Youre choice is between outright facism and pretty damn close to fascism, and in most places in the country you dont even get to contribute to that choice.
and otherwise just be totally as bad as Republicans
On forgein policy and economics? Yeah pretty much. On social issues? Democrats will say nice words but, again at least federally, not materially do anything.
Roe v. Wade certainly would have still been overturned if the election in 2016 had gone the other way, too, right?
2016 is in the past and you learned the wrong lesson from it. 2016 taught us that running a shitty milquetoast war criminal neoliberal candidate that noone other than wine moms likes against fascism (and pied pipering him as the nominee because you think you can beat him in the process btw!!!) doesn’t work. And again, both Obama and Biden could have codified Roe and didn’t. And Biden could have packed the courts to prevent the overturn.
All in all, electorialism won’t save us. And the violent solutions you wanted to avoid in your first post are actually our only way out of this mess. But they need to be organized.
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It’s not about defeating the us army lmao. It’s about striking and civil disobedience, even when illegal. That is the basic strategy to win concessions. On a long term basis, there needs to be more pressure on Democrats to maintain standards instead of just electing garbage candidates.
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There is like zero chance you or anyone else is going to apply any pressure or even this energy to Biden and Kamala to get them to change course, is there?
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This is what Democrats did this year.
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You know, you would get killed in Russia for your need to use different pronouns.
Not an American, so no real stake in this but, could you tell me what the Democrats have done in the past four years to protect trans rights? Since you’re all so clearly concerned about them an’ all.
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Okay, can you be more specific about what they did to minimise damage? Like, did they make trans people a protected class, or relieve the bureaucracy around transitioning, or what?
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I guess there’s some small comfort that they’ll at least pay lip service to trans rights then.
The labour party won an election over here and one of the first things they did was stop access to puberty blockers. During the election I was told by a lot of liberals preaching harm reduction that, as a trans woman, that I had to vote for them 'cos the Tories would be worse.
I’m worried about trans people over on your side of the ocean being in a similar position where the elections are between trans exterminationist and transphobe.
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I think the thing that most impresses me about this post is how you just completely neglected to mention forgein policy in your list of things like at all. The Democrats and Republicans being the same regarding supporting the US Empire (besides one side or the other pretending to be anti-war while being in the opposition sometimes, but not following through on that once in power) is a huge factor here lol. Really shows your priorities and that you just do not give a single shit about the global south.
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You could just choose to shut up do whatever you want. I have been doing actual political work and mutual aid work and defending my local comrades from pigs and liberals as well as fascists for over 20 years so kindly just quit this smarmy self important crusade you are on nobody gives a shit what you think.
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They already are. Under Biden. They did under Obama too. When are you liberals going to get over your great man theory and learn that it’s not Trump and it isn’t just Netenyahu. The US and Israel will be the same regardless of which party is at the helm.
You don’t give a shit about any of the things you mentioned because Democrats don’t either.
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Why don’t you care about any of the people in America?
As a disabled person living off federal benefits, with a transgender girlfriend living in a red state, I’m literally got skin in the game personally, so don’t tell me that I don’t care about people living in America. The problem is there is an active genocide going on and the Biden adminstration, including Kamala, are supporting it.
If you think the parties are the same on foreign policy but the Democrats are better on all the thing I mentioned, doesn’t that still mean the Democrats are less terrible?
I dont think they are materially better on the things you mentioned on the federal level as I mentioned in another post. The best they’ve done is nice sounding words. Another thing you forgot to mention btw is immigration, on which Biden has somehow managed to be materailly worse than Trump lmao. So theres that too.
and I would very much like to have an option that wasn’t, but I don’t, do I? I have to chose between the options given, and as bad as they are they’re clearly the less bad option.
You have options that aren’t that and they all involve doing literally any political thing other than voting. I literally don’t care if you decide to vote for Kamala, especially if you live in a swing state. Just please, god, take your eye off electorialism because it won’t save us.
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And serious, how can you not understand even after RvW that doing nothing is still better for you than what the Republicans will do.
The republicans do it anyway!! The republicans do what they want, the democrats allow them to while raking in donations by telling everyone how mean the republicans are! It’s not that the democrats are better because they don’t do bad things but republicans do, it’s that they are both parts of the same machine that does these things, playing their respective roles! How can you be so fucking blind as not see the blatant “good cop/bad cop” routine for what it is?? And yet you are calling other people morons (ableist language by the way, asshole) for trying to get this very obvious reality through to you!
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Doing other things than voting doesn’t stop you from voting. It takes 5 minutes every couple years. It is literally the least you can do
Voting for someone abetting a genocide (Biden, Harris) is endorsing that genocide. If the democrats win an election after funding a genocide, what kind of mesage is that sending all politicians, whether you like them or not? It’s telling them that they can commit genocide without repercussion, they can commit genocide and still have the support of the voting public. Voting for genocidaires (let alone defending them and trying to get others to do the same) makes you complicit in the current genocide as well as the ones that are sure to follow due to green light given to those who perpetrate them. You’re telling Democrats and any other politicians “as long as you give lip service to the things I care about - no need to follow through on them btw - then you can go ahead and murder entire nationalities and ethnic groups the world over, it’s ok, I’ll still vote for you.” Fucking disgusting.
What a stupid take. Do you think politicians give a shit what I think? Trust me, I’m so far outside the Overton window that I may as well be random noise to them, but I’m not so far up my own ass that I don’t care about the consequences of my actions. More people will die if Trump wins, and that is all that matter to me. If you think that’s supporting genocide then you can take you sick bizarro logic and shove it up your ass.
You are drowning in the blood of 200,000 Palestinians.
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You gasp for air, but all you get is a mouthful of blood – blood from the 200,000 Palestinians killed in a genocide you support.
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After all the Palestinian have been murdered under the watchful eyes of Biden and Harris, what ethnic or minority groups are you okay with exterminating in 2028?
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or having the possibility of making better choices in the future
How’s that working out for you if you look at the past few elections? Did you manage to push Biden left? Have they prosecuted the American war criminals? How far is Genocide Joe from your ideal? Is Copmala gonna be better, improving material circumstances?
Can’t you see that neoliberalism had literally the opposite effect - pushed everything even more right and extreme?Americans have this weird view of Russians and Putinists and liberals think that the Chinese are a brainwashed hivemind— but you look crazy from the outside when you argue for voting Mussolini against Hitler.
Democrats supported genocide and their brinkmanship with Russia got us closer to Nuclear Armageddon, fuck y’allOh yeah, how’s being a douchebag on the Internet working out for you as a replacement for democracy. It’s easy to criticize the flaws. It’s a lot harder to come up with something better. I never said it was working well, for the record. I said I’d like to keep the possiblity of it working open for the future, because let’s be real, if you have the resources to remake America, you have the resources to win an election. The fundamental problem with leftists is that we’re mostly smug assholes who refuse to work with anyone we disagree with, and until that changes we will remain completely irrelevant.
It’s a lot harder to come up with something better.
We had better options many times in history. They all got shafted by the dems or republicans.
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There were plenty of mildly progressive candidates that could have done things in power were modern America not a neoliberal hellhole. Beanie, AOC, the squad, Jill stien, Claudia de la cuz. Those are the current ones. Going further back, people like gore or nader could have played the role. But all of these people either got shafted through institutional factors or got cooped and forced to water down even their milquetoast radicalism. Many of these people were neutered by the Democrats.
On the movement level, the Democrats coopted, neutered then mutilated the corpse of the BLM social unrest in 2020, which could have been used to otherwise fuel a lot of progressive changes. Instead, the dems not only killed it, but poured salt on the wounds by increasing police budgets nationwide and even helping to build cop cities and expanding surveillance now!
The fact that the Democrats are less rabid than the Republicans does not make them easier enemies to deal with, but more dangerous. They have more patience and play the long game.
The fundamental problem with leftists is that we’re mostly smug assholes who refuse to work with anyone we disagree with,
I’m not American - I’m saying you are worse than what liberals say Russian and Chinese are
anyone we disagree with,
- Economically they are neoliberals - leftists are opposed to neoliberalism
- Their foreign policy is brinkmanship, genocide and bombing allied infrastructure
This is 0/2- how are they not enemies rather than “someone I disagree with”?
until that changes we will remain completely irrelevant.
You will remain irrelevant because you’d vote D whatever they do. It seems like you represent the Dems as a project whatever they do, rather than they represent the voter base, earning votes.
Which is ass backwards.deleted by creator
Who said anything about supporting them
Yes, I vote for them unconditionally, and I also argue publicly to vote for them unconditionally
Who said anything about supporting them
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You know, you would get killed in Russia for being pro-LGBTQ+.
Why are you still shilling for them?
Putin preferred Biden to Trump. Therefore a vote for Harris is a vote for Putin. 😱
https://www.reuters.com/world/putin-says-he-prefers-more-predictable-biden-over-trump-2024-02-14/
Asked who is better for Russia, he says Biden
So yeah, it appears we shouldn’t trust what Putin says publicly.
Obviously, he could say he prefers Biden and then pull every trolling ressources available to make Trump wins.
This statement from Putin doesn’t have any value whatsoever.
He would say openly the opposite it would still be extremely unreliable information.
That’s all true; I’m just trolling.
I actually don’t think Putin is that concerned with the American election, because Trump was quite hawkish towards Russia despite what Democrats say.
I also don’t care what Putin wants. I just want the war to end ASAP.
So if you’re anti-NATO and critically support Russia, then you’d prefer Biden too?
Putin said he prefers Biden, so I guess as a Russian bot I have to write him in.
Yeah, Putin has never lied. No sir, not a once.
Kicks all the mentions of the war being a military operation and they wouldn’t invade Ukraine under the couch.
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I’m starting to think Lemmy’s federation system is amazing at fostering communitarianism and even extremism.
What are you bringing to this topic apart from a fairly toxic même that just creates more rift between people ? Is it much better than an actual Russian bot ?
Wheres civility when you need them? Civility where are you?
It’s pretty toxic to call people that disagree with you robots in the first place. That’s the original toxic discourse.
But discrediting someone’s opinion by just posting this meme is NOT toxic ?
So it’s toxic to assume someone might be a Russian bot but it is not toxic to disregard the opinion of everybody that said that ? You know there are bots online. Maybe not much here but there was definitely many on Reddit. So bots are real but someone that points out a bot must be wrong.
This is weird.
Yes, it’s not toxic to point out that calling everyone you disagree with a bot is toxic.
The image in OP is what is toxic. Fostering a kind of echo chamber where the people who disagree with the prevailing narrative and bring reasoned arguments that contradict it get written off as “foreign agents” is extremely toxic, also nationalistic, and often borderline racist. It’s also childish. Pointing out how childish it is to tell someone “you’re just a RuSsIaN bOt!” because you don’t like what they have to say is definitely not toxic, quite the opposite.
Are you referring to the meme itself, or the comment you’re replying to?
communautarism
Definition?
That’s right folks, you heard it from this anonymous Lemmy account yourself: Russian Propaganda doesn’t exist.
Relying on calling your opponent a bot for opposing genocide is failed logic.
Doesn’t change the fact that the Russian propaganda machine is in full swing since they started the war in the sovereign nation of Ukraine.
We encounter them daily here, mostly from tankie instances like your hexbear.
Do you have any proof, or are you just further proving them correct?
I agree so much because as we all know you owe the Democrat Party your vote no matter what they do or how many children they murder through their Israeli proxies in Gaza
Also, Democrats can never fail, they can only be failed
we have to vote for Biden to save democracy
the point of voting is to choose the lesser evil, not have political parties win your vote by championing policies you support
Doesn’t seem like much to be saved there
Brilliant comment, I’m dead serious.
Enjoying an ice cold Baikal Cola, the American classic
The liberal veneer of civility goes away in the moment you criticize their idols.they cant fathom somebody that doesn’t like mr joe “saviour of the world” biden or mrs kamala “sent here by god himself” harris since they live in political ecochambers, so the only possibile explanation is that Russia pays a bunch of people to post normal people’s opinions online (most people are not hardliner diehard democrats)
I’m jealous of their chairs. My botfarm doesn’t have anything like it in the contract. On the other hand, it doesn’t insist on shaving yourself like a butt, so there’re some upsides to it too.
Hell yeah brother
Oh I thought this was an ironic thing lmao
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